Are there reliable differences between generations? Should business and HR leaders make decisions based on generational differences? Why are generations so popular on social media and in the popular business press? Are generations even a thing? In this episode, I interrogate Dr. David Costanza, Director of the I/O Psych Doctoral program at George Washington University, where he is Associate Professor of Psychology and Organizational Sciences. I learned a lot and I hope you will, too. Check out the episode page for a full transcript. (Apologies in advance for blowing out the microphone! I sound like I’m screaming this episode!)
Transcript
This transcript is AI-generated and may contain inaccuracies. Please do not quote myself or any of my guests based on this transcript.
00:00.00
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
Hello and welcome to the department 12 podcast where we talk about everything I o psych my guest today is Dr David Costanza, Ph.D. director of the I O Psych doctoral program at George Washington University where he is associate professor of psychology and organizational sciences. How are you today? David yeah David you’ve done research on high potentials organizational culture, leadership statistical methods and a whole lot more but today I’d like to talk to you about generations generational differences in the workforce.
00:19.68
David Costanza, Ph.D.
I’m great. Thank you for inviting me Glad to be here.
00:35.40
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
Before we get into that though would you mind sharing how you ended up in iosych to begin with.
00:42.32
David Costanza, Ph.D.
Well yeah when I went to undergrad I was gonna go into business and um so I took a introductory economics class and after about two weeks decided that was wrong. Um took a business class and decided that was closer but not quite I tried so she I tried. Ah, american studies I tried history and then I found an iosych course and it was like oh psychology and business I’ll try that one and that’s it it wrong true. That was what I wanted to do um and so that professor was very ah. Ah, motivational to me inspirational to me I spent a lot of time talking with her about the field and just got interested in it from there and ended up with my master’s my ph d in it. So just kind of wheel a fortune in terms of finding a course that was kind of close to what I wanted to do and I was like ring the bell.
01:15.81
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
He.
01:30.33
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
Yeah that’s great. Usually when I ask that question people are coming at it from oh I was really into psychology and then I found out. There was a business angle. So it’s fascinating to hear you were you know initially started in business and then found the psych angle. It’s discouraging that. Almost every conversation ends up with I was into 5 other things before I even knew this existed but we will get there I guess all right? So that’s how you got in the iosy. How did you get into workforce generations as a research topic.
02:03.25
David Costanza, Ph.D.
Yeah, so I do some technical consulting for the army the us Army Research Institute and I’m kind of an outside third party reviewer advisor consultant type and they just they kind of ping me for various topics like what do you know about this or.
02:22.18
David Costanza, Ph.D.
Ah, we got this proposal doesn’t quite make sense. What do you make of it or somebody’s proposing. This new idea is it worth studying. So it’s kind of ah you know, kind of a third -party reviewer and the chief of the research office came up to me one day and said what do you know about generations and I said nothing other than you know what? I read the newspaper. And he said the whoever the general was in charge of that branch had asked ah him about generations because this is the group that does research about workforce and recruitment and retention stuff and his comment was how how come we can’t keep these millennials in the army.
02:56.49
David Costanza, Ph.D.
And so that trickled to me and he said what you know about generations and I said nothing but let me look it up and so I wrote a white paper for for him and for the office and the more I read about the the research that was out there and the ideas and the the characteristics and the findings the more annoyed I got and a time I was done with the white paper. My conclusion was. Something really wrong with this because the definitions were weird and the measurement was bad and the conceptual support was lacking and the findings were mixed and and so that original white paper turned into the first meta-analysis that we did because it was like well. Conceptually doesn’t seem to be working. Let’s let’s just see what the research shows and that’s where that 2012 Meta analysis came from and from that it just kind of kept going the more we looked into it the more problematic it was and the more we looked at different angles of it then turned into the research program that it is now.
03:46.27
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
Okay, so um, it’s interesting. You mentioned the army I’m ah I’m a big civil war guy I’m always reading about the civil war and and nobody back then is talking about generations. You know I don’t read letters from soldiers in the civil war where they’re talking about you know Albert’s one of those. Telegraph generation kids who once praised all the time anything like that when did this concept the generations as we now understand it or endure it like when did that come about.
04:10.34
David Costanza, Ph.D.
Yeah, so I mean the you know biological generations obviously been around for as long as we’ve been studying you know living creatures from a kind of sociological psychological construct probably in the 50 s and sixty s emerged with this idea of you know Manheim and and a few others a writer talked about this idea of.
04:13.90
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
Sure.
04:28.88
David Costanza, Ph.D.
Ah, shared experiences and a social construct of people who were kind of similar to each other and think just kind of floated in that hey this is an interesting idea ah domain until probably the late eighty s early 90 S Strauss and Howe’s book on generations and they’re historians kind of they did this kind of historical demography. Um, and went back and looked at 20 year increments to identify what were the kind of key events that created the generations and so if you read through their book. Each chapter is ah is a quote unquote generation. They go back like to 1660 or something they’ve had these 20 year increments
05:03.80
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
Whoa.
05:05.47
David Costanza, Ph.D.
And here’s what was happening in the world and here’s the key events and here’s the characteristics of the people and they did that all the way up into until 1990 um, updated the book 10 years later but that was kind of the beginnings of hey these are a thing and there’s distinct groups and they’re caused by distinct shared events. And they have impacts because they make people more similar to each other than to people who didn’t experience a thing or people who are of a different age. Ah, and so then we really see kind of empirical work starting to Merge late 90 s into the early two thousand s where where people tried to start studying this thing. Um, and that kind of goes on until you know 14012 when we did our metaanalysis so manhaim in the 50 s came up with the idea and probably the strauss and how book in the 90 s is the ba is ah.
05:43.78
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
Um, okay, did strat and how have some rationale for the 20 year Mark or was it. You know, admittedly arbitrary or yeah.
05:57.45
David Costanza, Ph.D.
Well, it’s it’s more or less tied to biological generations. You know at the time I think they cited 22 years was the rough human generational you know biological gap. Um I think for convenience sake there rounded it down to 20
06:00.40
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
Turn. Okay.
06:13.96
David Costanza, Ph.D.
Ah, because you know 20 year increments are a lot easier to track than 22 year increments. But yeah, it’s roughly tied to the biological generation. Um.
06:17.56
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
Um, yeah, yeah.
06:20.42
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
Okay, all right? So this is a topic that that you’ve written about for slate and you’ve been interviewed by the wall street journal Washington post financial times and a whole lot more It’s obviously a hot topic in the workplace and it has been for at least as long as I’ve been in the workplace. Ah, couple of decades now I’m leaving aside ah the research for now. Why do you think people are so interested in generations. Why is this such a hot topic in in just the population in general.
06:52.24
David Costanza, Ph.D.
Well, they’re very appealing right? If you think about kind of how they get applied in the workplace and in life and families and things like that. It’s basically a set of stereotypical characteristics about a group of people and so you could say the same thing about firefighters or all X or.
07:08.82
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
Um.
07:12.30
David Costanza, Ph.D.
Um, chefs are all y or people from Germany or all Z right? They’re the kind of categori of categories that make it easy to to group and assign characteristics to people. Um, and then.
07:14.27
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
Who.
07:23.82
David Costanza, Ph.D.
Combined with the characteristics you know, changing nature of the workforce and of work and you do have a ah broader range of people who are working. You know you think fifty sixty years ago you know you started working when you were 16 or 18 and you know if you made it the 50 you were probably pretty lucky and so there might have only been what we would think of as you know. Current conceptualization. You know, 2 generations that were there and they weren’t that dissimilar and the type of work was pretty consistent I think the way work has changed. People are more dispersed more information based they work longer. You know you don’t have 60 and 70 year olds doing physical labor. They’re doing and information work and knowledge work.
07:49.10
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
Um.
08:00.20
David Costanza, Ph.D.
So you do have a broader range of people and the the further apart people are in age. Um the more different they are just based on their lifespan and experiences. So I think that’s probably a contributor and then I will say that some of the academics who have purported to study generations.
08:08.14
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
Okay.
08:16.60
David Costanza, Ph.D.
Did so in a way that made it very appealing to the pop press and the managers I mean if you read some of the generations books that came out after strauss and how a lot of them are like how to manage the millennials and and things managers know about a generational workforce and so part of it I think is that translation from.
08:22.63
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
Um.
08:28.29
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
Um.
08:35.41
David Costanza, Ph.D.
The empirical research which was admittedly flawed and mixed and equivocal. But honestly put forth by a subset of academics and practitioners who said hey this is something that might be of interest to business give them the benefit of the doubt and say they thought it was a thing that might be Useful. Don’t give them the benefit of the doubt be a little bit more cynical. You know it’s a way to make money in terms of. You know selling these things.
08:56.25
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
Sure, Yeah, absolutely um, okay so as we dig into more of the research help us get our terminology straight here. What’s the difference between a cohort and a generation.
09:05.96
David Costanza, Ph.D.
Well generation is a special kind of cohort. So a cohort is a group of people and it could be as simple as that when you get into a generational cohort using the.
09:08.85
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
Okay.
09:23.18
David Costanza, Ph.D.
Generally agreed upon definition of what a generation is a generational cohort is a group of people roughly the same age who shared some experience in a way that made them more similar to each other and more different than people who are of a different age or who didn’t experience the event so simplifying that. If you’re 18 to 22 and you go through a recession that’s going to make that 18 to 22 year old group very similar to each other in some kind of way and and less similar to 18 to twenty two year olds who didn’t go through it or 38 to forty two year olds who did.
09:57.00
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
I got it. Thank you that helps to clarify now to get a little more complicated Could you help us understand the difference between age period and cohort effects.
10:09.53
David Costanza, Ph.D.
Sure So you know an age effect is some characteristic of an individual that is related to their chronological age their psychological age their their place in life. They’re kind of you know where they are in their life course. Um, typically tied you know, obviously very highly quality with age. So Typically as you get older things happen an age effect is vision right? as you get older your eyes get worse and you start need to reading glasses. Um, you know the the classic you know. Intelligence and age and intelligence like what’s the correlation there and it looks kind of kind of U shape. Although it kind of asymptotes after it Peaks not because people get less intelligent but because most intelligence tests are timed and as you get older, you get slower. So your intelligence score goes down so that would be an age effect. Um, a period of fact is a contemporaneous environmental effect that impacts everybody So the pandemic is a perfect example of a period effect 119 would be a period effect World War Ii So there’s something that’s happening in the environment and it could be a local environment or it could be a global. Literally a global environment that has an impact on the people who experience it and then a cohort effect would be that interaction and here’s that’s one of the first things we notice in terms of the generation’s research is that a a generational cohort.
11:34.19
David Costanza, Ph.D.
Is defined by how old you are and what you experience so a times p equals c and the challenge is is that from a conceptual and a computational standpoint those are inseparable because the generation is not separate from the age times. Period. So if I know how old you are. And I know what you experienced by definition I know your generation and so now if you if you say well people in this generational cohort have this characteristic or have this attitude or have this trait is it because they’re in the group is it because they’re in a particular age is because. Um, a particular period or is to become some kind of interaction and the the strauss and how and then the kind of pop press management e pieces after them assumed that whatever effect they saw ah millennials are lazy ah or young people are lazy I should say. Is a cohort effect. It’s a generational effect but it could just be that younger people are less motivated or could be people that went to work during a recession or less motivated so that was one of the first thing that jumped out at us was well. If I know how old you are and what you experience then I know what your generation is so if I see something that’s supposedly a generational effect. How do I know that that’s unique to that generation and not caused by age or period.
12:55.86
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
Okay, and I want to ask this one and and get it out there as clearly as I can if I work in let’s say human resources or I’m just a business leader and in whatever function, whatever role I have. Should I be relying on generations to make decisions either about personnel or business. In other words, all of the the stuff that we have out there. The books, the articles that never seem to end and they talk about the differences between generations how to manage differently benefits are different. Um. Based on generations should I be doing that or not.
13:35.10
David Costanza, Ph.D.
Simple answer no and the answer is because there’s no evidence that that age times period interaction actually creates a distinct group of people and so what that means is if you say millennials are fill in the blank. There’s. Literally no empirical evidence substantial empirical evidence that suggests that millennials are a distinct group of people or that any other generationally labeled cohort is a distinct group of people and so now you kind of then you what you run into is saying oh well. Millennials want to be managed this way and gen xers want to be managed that way. I mean that’s like saying you know people from planet krypton and people who are you know named x a e twelve ah are groups of people who should be treated in a particular way I mean those groups just simply don’t exist. And so treating them as if they do one doesn’t make any sense from a business standpoint because you’re making a business decision based on a characteristic that doesn’t really exist and 2 I mean the second problem there’s ah, a number of them. Another one is a legal concern. Ah, because generations in the workplace. Especially when you get into human resources policies and practices are de facto age right? You can’t be a 22 year old Baby Boomer and you can’t be a 70 year old millennial because you’re looking at your workforce. It’s cross-sectional right.
14:59.17
David Costanza, Ph.D.
And so it’s highly correlated with age it. It is basically just age and from a legal standpoint the course the risk there is is you’ve got employment law age discrimination and employment act and others that prohibit decisions based on age and so I’ve you know done a bunch of talks and and. You know when we get to this age question that pops up and you say well give me these characteristics of millennials and it’s usually you know all the stereotypical characteristics. But I Also hear young, right? These are young people and I said okay keep in mind that the the oldest millennials are now protected by the age discrimination and employment act so they are literally. From a legal sense old. So if you start treating them based on their generational characteristics Now you’re de facto age and you open yourself up for for legal claims based on age discrimination. Um, and that’s ah you know businesses would want to avoid that Hr wants to avoid that. So The the it’s a long, no answer right? But then the question is so what do you do right? What’s the yes answer and the yes answer is look at what the characteristics are of Interest. You know if you say well young people want to be autonomous and motivated and you know and you know have an investment in their own work and I gave a talk and so you know, ah.
15:55.79
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
Um, yeah.
16:12.59
David Costanza, Ph.D.
Ah, room full of lawyers and 1 of them asked me. Well, you know how do you How do you deal with all this need for autonomy that these do millennials have and I said let me just ask you a question raise the hands how many in this room. Don’t want autonomy in your job. Yeah, and they laugh and no one raises their hand and I said okay so if autonomy is important autonomy is important. How many of you want a flexible work schedule. Everybody raises their hand. Okay, well then figure out a flexible work schedule look at the characteristics look at what the Hr policies benefits compensations trying to accomplish and reward focus on that and just and drop the generational piece and you’ll be a lot more successful.
16:47.42
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
So that takes care of our you know our hr leaders our business leaders I think that’s that’s a good warning very consistent with the the research that I’ve read. But what about everybody else. So there’s. You know, like we mentioned earlier, there’s books. There’s articles. There’s tons of people posting about this on social media and it almost seems like it’s something that they do almost like astrology like they’re just having fun with it. Should we let them have their fun is there downsides that that you see to. Just sort of allowing people to believe the mainstream view about generations and their characteristics.
17:28.81
David Costanza, Ph.D.
Well, you know, um I’ve never never wanted to tell people not to have fun. But I yeah I think there is a danger to it and the danger is that the characteristics that we tend that art that tend to be associated with certain generations tend not to be the positive ones they tend to be the negative ones. Ah. And you know think of any group of people based on demographics or gender or religion or race or anything. Ah and think of all the negative stereotypes that are associated with that group of people and then say well that’s okay because if we’re just having fun with that right? Um there’s a great. Ah, quote that we pulled when we were trying to get to the stereotyping piece and I I use it in in 1 of my presentations as well and I don’t have the full quote in front of me. But um, it’s basically and and keep in mind for your listeners. This is a quote from someone else’s work that I’m citing. This is not my beliefs in any way shape or form. Um. But it’s giving advice to managers about how to hire administrative support and the advice is along the lines of ah higher younger ah single women because they need the job so they’re more likely to stick around if you hire a married woman. She’s going to get pregnant and leave. Um. This is my favorite part again. Not my opinion. This is from the from the article itself hire women of a certain physical characteristic because they’re less likely to be flirty. They’re less likely to get into office romances and whatever you do never denigrate or yell at a woman because it’ll demoralize her and demotivate her.
18:58.81
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
Okay, so all of these things are things I’m going to pull out of context and quote you directly on in social I’m sorry got that’s smart. You’ve talked to press before it’s a skill that not many of us have but you’ve talked to press before and you know what to do in there.
19:01.24
David Costanza, Ph.D.
Ah.
19:06.21
David Costanza, Ph.D.
Um, absolutely and that’s why I interspersed all of my my caveats in there. Ah yeah.
19:17.47
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
To interpolate those. This is not me talking now. Don’t don’t quote me on this. Yeah so that is a great example of how generational thinking or stereotype-based thinking in general can lead to bad decisions you know, even if they aren’t being done by somebody with chief in their.
19:19.90
David Costanza, Ph.D.
Yeah.
19:26.19
David Costanza, Ph.D.
Right.
19:35.79
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
Their job title. It’s something that can lead us to to make bad decisions in our everyday lives as well. Um, sure.
19:41.56
David Costanza, Ph.D.
Yeah, and and then then to finish that so I pop this up on the screen I look around the room to see the eyebrows go up and then I that I pop it then the responses this is from ah a journal a magazine and from a journal article from the 1940 s um, aimed at transportation managers about how to hire their secretaries right? So this is practical advice to managers in the 1940 s and then the next one I pop up are quotes from another article about. This group of people is lazy and they don’t want to be motivated and they don’t answer their phones and all they all they want to do is text and and play video games and you know we can’t we can’t hire them. They’re worthless blah blah blah blah blah and these are various quotes about millennials from in the 2000 right? and I said you know they’re not as obviously kind of sexist horrifying types of. Ah, stereotypes but they’re negative stereotypes nonetheless and I said how come this is okay now and you know it’s the answer is. It’s not so so the fun part of it. You know the horoscopey piece and I think I’ve heard that analogy before and I think that’s probably pretty close but. But the stereotypes that are associated with these groups are almost uniformly negative and it’s just like any negative stereotype. It’s it’s dangerous. It’s damaging to those folks. It’s damaging to the people who use them and I think it’s I think it’s wildly problematic across the board.
20:48.60
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
Um.
20:59.55
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
Yeah, um I see you know anecdotal evidence of that in my everyday life because I get resistance when I make complementary or positive statements about younger generations. Um, you know if I talk about you know like.
21:15.88
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
And an intern who’s working with me who’s really knocking it out of the park doing great or just saying you know like you know I hear all this stuff about younger people. But the people that I’m around are are really awesome like there’s almost like a like a pushback against that like there’s a resentment that I’ve even brought up something. That could challenge somebody’s stereotype negative stereotype about another generation. Um, and while we’re on the topic of of personal experience and Anecdote I found that it’s pretty difficult to overcome that when I am gently trying to debunk some of this stuff. Most common response I get is look you know I see these differences with my own eyes every day I see differences between millennials and baby boomers For example on the job every day you egghead. So don’t tell me there are no differences. Okay, usually not that mean, but that’s kind of what the tone conveys. If generational differences are mostly bullshit. Why is it that everyone seems to see them anyway.
22:17.33
David Costanza, Ph.D.
Yeah I mean there’s certainly like kind of the availability and confirmation biases that that people have and I’ve heard the same thing. It’s like well I’ve seen this with my own eyes and ah just ah, tell you ah a quick story that might help with that and and I was. Giving a talk at a tech conference and 1 of the organizers. One of the people who invited me ah because I have this perspective and so you know she was supportive and she thought it was really interesting. Um, and afterwards I was talking to her and she goes well you know I heard what you said but man my assistant she just she’s she’s all of those things that you said that she’s not. And I said I didn’t say she’s not those things I don’t know her. Um, what I said is it’s dangerous to assume that everybody who is in this group has those characteristics and I said what’s one of the things about her ah performance not her personality but her performance it’s problematic and she said x whatever x was. And I said do you have other employees who do x that’s also problematic and she said well yeah of course and I said well how old are they and you know one of them was you know 55 and I said well how come when your assistant who is 25 does x she has all these negative millennial stereotypes. But when this other person who’s 55 does x that’s a performance problem and you deal with that by coaching or training or you know providing performance feedback or things like that and she just went and that was it right? But I think that I think that’s what you have to do is you set to point out that the character you know? yeah you see it with your own eyes. But.
23:38.86
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
Yeah.
23:47.00
David Costanza, Ph.D.
Are you telling me that you don’t see great performers among Twenty five year olds and you don’t see lazy un unmotivated non-committed fifty five year olds and I think when you point out pointed out that that they’re looking for characteristics in a group of people and when they see them. They go yes, um it it.
24:05.20
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
Yeah.
24:05.58
David Costanza, Ph.D.
Opens Eyes a little bit does it change it to get get rid of it and no is it a slow slow way to do it? Yes, but I think that’s kind of what we do right? That’s what we have to do is is keep pointing out that that the associations and the characteristics and the stereotypes are not part and parcel of this group of people. They are characteristics of workers and if the problem address the problem and don’t just assume that this constellation of characteristics is part of that problem.
24:27.88
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
Um.
24:32.99
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
Yeah, so we don’t want to combat stereotypes with opposite stereotypes. We don’t want to just point out that like hey you know contrary to your belief about Zoomers or Boomers or whomever and you think they’re X. They’re really y. We. Just don’t want to be going down that road at All. We want to be thinking about you know what are the actual characteristics of the people regardless of their generational cohort. What are the actual problems. What are their actual interests like just you know. Treating them like people rather than as representatives of of some category.
25:08.79
David Costanza, Ph.D.
Yeah, 100% and and one of the things that I I have advocated my colleagues have advocated for. Is we try to use the labels as little as possible. Um because the labels activate the stereotypes and so even I even find myself in this conversation.
25:18.13
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
Um.
25:25.77
David Costanza, Ph.D.
Hesitating to say the labels I’d rather say you know new workers or mid-career workers or senior workers or or even older workers. Um, because once you once you put a label on it. You created a boundary right? This group has this boundary.
25:27.73
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
Ah, yeah, sure.
25:40.22
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
Um, me.
25:42.32
David Costanza, Ph.D.
Um, and they have these characteristics and so I try to focus on you know what? what are the positive performance. What performance areas need improvement. What are the characteristics of these people these individuals and these groups of people and just try to stay away from the labels as much as possible because the labels immediately people kind of activate it and so like when I was talking with this.
26:00.92
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
Um, it’s like a priming.
26:02.13
David Costanza, Ph.D.
With this manager I didn’t talk about labels I said well how old is this person. How old is that person and why do you think their performance problem which is identical is different because they’re of different Ages. So That’s something else I think we could do in. Articles and in interviews and in podcasts is to try to stay away from the labels because they’re so activating.
26:19.43
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
All right I have my orders I will do my best and then listeners if you catch me using those labels you know except for for here where we’re using them for a particular reason, please call me out on it I don’t I don’t think that I do but I’ll find out from listeners. Last question for you David actually has nothing to do with generations or you know age cohort or or anything like that except that I do have you know, many younger listeners who are you know, looking at their career in iosych. Um, considering maybe moving to the dc area for either graduate school or maybe. You know to build their career. Um, could you just tell us like is is the Dc area. A good place for iowa psychology.
27:03.57
David Costanza, Ph.D.
Ah, yeah I mean as far as I know it’s one of the highest densities of I like ios psychologists in the country. There are you know 2 3 graduate programs obviously multiple universities teach it at the undergraduate level. We’ve got ah. All the big consulting firms are here. We’ve got ah kind of applied research firms. You know the ones that that do consulting but do from a research basis and then you’ve got the military and you’ve got the federal government all of whom who have ips psychologists. It’s a really vibrant community I think that’s one of the strengths of being in the Washington area is that um. But you talk about iosych and you talk about you know, organizational psychology and leadership and development. All of h are all the things we talk about? Um, you don’t get as many puzzled looks about what it is. There’s ah, there’s a couple. Ah you know.
27:47.78
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
Um.
27:51.82
David Costanza, Ph.D.
Ah, local groups that focus on Iosych and you know the universities and we share you know, share classes and share speakers and and things like that. So Yeah I think it’s a great place to come be an Io. Regardless if you want to be go academic. You want to go applied you want to do research you want to work for the government Big consulting firms. Ah, it’s ah it’s a very vibrant place to to study and practice iopsych.
28:12.45
Ben Butina, Ph.D.
Awesome David thank you so very much for taking the time to talk to us I learned a lot I know the audience did as well and I hope your holidays go great.
28:21.53
David Costanza, Ph.D.
Yeah, thank you very much enjoyed it and anytime you would talk about generations or give me call.
