Victoria Mattingly on Moving From Tolerance to Allophilia

Dr. Victoria Mattingly joins Dr. Ben Butina to discuss diversity, equity and inclusion in the workplace. She shares her expertise from publishing the book Inclusalytics and running her consulting firm. Dr. Victoria opens up about battling cancer this year and how it differed from facing depression. The conversation covers how to build genuine inclusion for all identities, embracing neurodiversity, using data to drive DEI efforts, and strategies to cultivate more allies. Tune in for an insightful discussion on leading with empathy, intersectionality, and ability-based inclusion.


This transcript is AI-generated and may contain inaccuracies. Please do not quote myself or any of my guests based on this transcript.

Welcome back to the Department 12 Podcast, where we talk about everything

Ben Butina, Ph.D.: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Department Twelve Podcast, where we talk about everything. I-O psych. I’m, your host, Dr. Ben Butina joining me today is Dr. Victoria Mattingly. How are you today, Victoria?

Victoria Mattingly, Ph.D.: I’m doing great. Thanks for having me.

Ben Butina, Ph.D.: Well, thank you so much for being here.

Mattingly Solutions is a women owned workplace inclusion consulting firm

Ben Butina, Ph.D.: I wanted to start by asking about your company and your book and how they tie together.

Victoria Mattingly, Ph.D.: Yeah, absolutely. So, my company is Mattingly Solutions, and we are a women owned workplace inclusion consulting firm. And so we do fit in that know diversity, equity, inclusion bucket. I do know those terms, and the order of those terms are changing all the time. and that’s, I think, a distraction. But that’s another conversation for another day. So we’re in that dei consulting firm space, and something that really makes this unique is that m me and my co owner, Sir Teresa Grice, and all of our employees are all Iosychologists. And we really ground everything in that Iosychology training. Right? So, like, good, data collection and statistical methods, really looking at all the different systems at play, understanding, the importance of properly defining and operationalizing terms and measuring there’s a common phrase in the dei space, MDEI diversity, Equity, and Inclusion. For those out there that might not know that, it’s moving the needle. Are we moving the needle? We got to move the needle. And it’s like, what are we moving the needle on, Ben? Are we talking fahrenheit celsius meters, Miles? What are we talking about? Especially with inclusion. And so, to answer your second question, that’s really how inclusively fits into this. And so the full name of the book inclusivelytics how Diversity, Equity and Inclusion leaders use data to drive their work. I hope we can plug that link somewhere on here. I know you mentioned a lot of students listen to these conversations, which is great. I love talking with students, talking to students. And, the book has been adopted in a lot of university classrooms, which I’ve been just shocked by, especially because we got told if we were going to self publish, that university professors would not put it on their syllabus because it’s not like a stamp, like it’s not an accredited book or whatever. And I was like, Well, I don’t care. That’s, cool, but I don’t care, because this isn’t for them. We didn’t write it students or academics. We wrote it for dei leaders getting going with maybe new budget, new team, new just role where they can actually build a proper dei strategy and function at their organization, and they want to use more data to do it. We needed to get this out there. We wrote it in ten months, which is wild. We literally went from postits to published in my hand in ten months, because we wanted to get it out there as soon as possible. There were so many it was just such a strong lead. And honestly, and this is the very first line in the preface, this was not supposed to be our first book. My first book was supposed to be on Allyship because that’s what my dissertation was on. That’s how I really broke into the dei space, because initially my training was more broad. It was more around, the science of learning and development. How do we use training to affect, behavior change? Right. But I see the way we operationalize inclusion, just a subset of that. I still feel like I’m doing my work just in a more niche way. because define inclusion as the behaviors that result in others feeling valued, respected, seen and heard. And people don’t love that definition, especially, like, my executive leaders that will train or like, they’ll be like, give me the list, tell me exactly what to do. I’m like, well, what’s going to make Ben feel included is going to look very different. That makes Maria feel included looks very different than makes Jamal feel included or whatever. So it’s like you have to get to know the person on the other side of that conversation, on the other side of that interaction, to know that making eye contact with so and so, that makes them feel seen with someone else. That makes them feel uncomfortable because maybe they have some neurodivergence that makes eye contact difficult. So it’s like, oh, you got to get to know your people. And I feel like at the end of the day, when I set out into I O thinking about my grad school essay, i, wanted to train the world to be more emotionally intelligent. I still think inclusion is a subset of that because it’s a matter of reading people, knowing yourself, exploring our biases, challenging our biases, and interacting with others.

Lack of executive buy in is the biggest barrier to dei success

Ben Butina, Ph.D.: What do you run into out there in terms of myths or misapprehensions or assumptions on the part of those business decision makers, what’s in their head when they hear dei these days?

Victoria Mattingly, Ph.D.: I’m really lucky that the way we set up our business model at Mattingly is that we don’t start working with even having those sales conversations with executives until they come to us. Because this work is already so challenging in such an uphill battle that if they’re not being intentional by like we are going to seek out and pay a dei consultant to help us do this next thing and we’re going to find the people that are going to do it with data and going to do it this way.

Ben Butina, Ph.D.: So if they’re m a marketing perspective, you’re not out there trying to pitch yourself. You’re just sort of like, hey, here we are. You’re presenting the best version of the company that you can online, I presume, and all that fun stuff. But you really want the clients to come to you because why? That shows a level of seriousness.

Victoria Mattingly, Ph.D.: It’s a litmus test. It’s a litmus test. if they’re willing to come to us, they’re bought in, in a way, because getting that buy in, there’s research this HR.com study that comes out year over year, and they ask HR leaders, what’s the number one barrier to advancing your Dei efforts? And it was a tie this year. It was tied between lack of metrics ding, ding, dings, what we do at battingly, but tied with lack of executive buy in. So if that’s their number one challenge, is lack of executive buy in, I can’t fix that. I’m not an executive change management specialist. Right. I need their buy in from the get go, even if their buying is just as much as paying for a consultant. You know what I mean? Because you want to get value out of that, right? Value out of it.

Ben Butina, Ph.D.: Well, let me ask you this. is that something that you know because somebody gave you that advice, you just kind of figured it out on your own? Or is there some experience that led you to come to that conclusion? Like, hey, they got to select me.

Victoria Mattingly, Ph.D.: I’ve been very lucky with building this business. Very lucky, because I’m a PhD. I-O-I learned our craft in our field and our methodology. Right. I didn’t learn anything about entrepreneurship or marketing or sales or any of that stuff, but I built during COVID and my only outlet was social media. That was it. That was my only way of getting in front of new people. My only way. and so I leaned into so combine that with I am not a saleswoman ben. I don’t like selling. I don’t want to never in my consulting days, like working for other consulting firms, I did not like being on the pre sales team and doing the horse and that and then also, when you’re selling that hard, you’re shifting the solution. That’s what they’re hiring you for.

Ben Butina, Ph.D.: When you say shifting the solution, what do you mean by that?

Victoria Mattingly, Ph.D.: So, like, okay, you come in, and I’m going to use, like, I don’t know the right example, but say you come in and you’re trying to sell them training, right? And you’re selling like you’re going hard, trying to sell them training. You have conversation after conversation. Turns out they don’t need training or want training, but they need coaching back.

Ben Butina, Ph.D.: Yeah.

Victoria Mattingly, Ph.D.: And so now you’re like, well, you know what? Let’s do coaching. Let’s do coaching. But you don’t have the capacity for coaching. You don’t have the expertise for coaching. You don’t have the framework for coaching. I’m not interested in that. Especially when Dei is already so squishy as a field and shifting and changing, and there’s very few gold standards, or like Mattingly does XYZ. And I want to be known as the best in that space. I want to be known as the best dei measurement consulting firm in the space. I want to be known as the partners that help you work side by side with you to build sustainable solutions. So I have the best story right now. It’s so exciting. One of my very first big clients who actually got through my Psyop network. I’m very grateful for my very, and we built everything. Scratch everything. The counsel, the strategy, the measurement approach, the training, the year over year KPI, everything from scratch. And we were together for probably about two years. And then it was so strange. Ben, she ghosted me. She was paying for our services, and the woman ghosted me. And it’s just so interesting. So in good faith, contract wise, I could have kept just raking in that money. That’s what that companies plan on. Let’s get, them in a license, and even if they never come to us, we’re going to charge them until they cancel. I canceled. I said, I don’t feel right charging you because you’re not using us right. And then that was it. And I was like, well, we did so much great work. I have no regrets. But what a sad way to end kind of just getting ghosted. She came back around. We got ghosted because they didn’t need us anymore. We did such a good job being their partner that we set up that structure and that function and that methodology, and got the right people in the right places, did all the things that we do well as iOS, we set up the right places. They didn’t need us. And that’s my goal. But the cool thing is, they need us now for something else. And when it comes to who are we going to work with to help us, solve this new DTI problem that we didn’t have before? Oh, Matting, these solutions, because they’ve already done so much for us. So that’s, like, my ideal scenario. And I love that story, because if, you don’t need us, then that’s a waste of everyone’s time. And I don’t want the reputation it’s also I’m stacking the deck. I don’t want the reputation of being the dei, company that can’t show any impact. Forget that. I need a company that comes to me that’s ready to show impact. They’re ready to go.

So you mentioned that it’s a pretty I O Psych centric company

Ben Butina, Ph.D.: So you mentioned that it’s a pretty I O Psych centric company that you have there. What do you think makes a difference compared, to maybe a dei consulting firm that, I don’t know, run by HR folks or organizational development or something? What makes it different being an IO in this space?

Victoria Mattingly, Ph.D.: I think it’s the same answer to what makes I O different in any space compared to those fields. And it’s our deep understanding and use of data. even our business counterparts, like PhDs in business, PhDs in management, OB and whatnot. We are still trained so much more in data than they are their theory. And they do research. They do good research. And quite honestly, being on the practitioner side of things, we don’t need to know most of the fancy stuff that we know as iOS. But that’s another conversation for another day.

Ben Butina, Ph.D.: We’ll have that conversation another day with a microphone running. Because, I think it would be fascinating.

I’m also interested in sort of like, elements of diversity because I find

Ben Butina, Ph.D.: I’m also interested in sort of like, elements of diversity because I find that by default, when you use diversity or dei now, even though I know those are three separate concepts, most people kind of default to the EEO categories. race, sex, religion, et cetera. what are we missing? What are the elements of diversity that we miss when we focus on those sort of, like, big banner categories?

Victoria Mattingly, Ph.D.: So I have two answers to this question. One is the broader answer, which is regardless of whatever the categories are, we’re missing intersectionality. We can’t just look in these buckets as like, all right, here are all the women. Here are all the black people. It’s like, what about all the black women? What about all the black women over the age of 40? You know what I mean? There’s going to be unique circumstances and trends that we’ve seen in the data. The more intersectional we can get with it, the more variables we can see. It’s how long we can build that regression equation, right? How many variables are we sticking in there? so that’s one answer to that question. The second answer I’m trying to pull up how we talk about I’m going to Ratle off a list. I’m going to Ratle off a list. I just used the other training. oh, this training was so cool, by the way. It was with the Pittsburgh Brewers guild. So it’s like the nonprofit that tries to advance industry wide. And so it’s like 44 breweries that were represented. We had like, 90 people in the room. And I gave this training. We billed them a database code of conduct. And then we did a training teaching them not only just how to use the code of conduct, but just like, basic principles, like what is identity? What are inclusive behaviors? What is our role at the end of the day? What is the leg aggression? How do we try to stay out of that space? You know what I mean? Yeah, it was so cool. But anyway, here’s the slide I’m just going to read off of. And the title is we all hold many identities. And we have this kind of cool, beehive kind of like hexagons together. And it said race ethnicity. There’s disability. And by the way, I’m going to start shifting that language. I’m going to talk about ability based diversity, ability based inclusion. I’m very excited to talk about that, moving forward. But there’s age. There’s caregiver status, sexual orientation, gender. We could have religion in there. Veteran status. Did I say veteran status neurodivergence and not lumping that with ability based. And that’s been a very interesting, boundary line watching Shift, especially recently. we can also add in things like, of course, sexual rotation. I think I said that.

Ben Butina, Ph.D.: Yeah.

Victoria Mattingly, Ph.D.: we can look at things like job characteristics as well. So what’s your role in the organization? What’s your leadership level? What’s your tenure? you can also look at those as outcome variables, but we measure them in that demographic part of the survey. So those are the ones we measure at Mattingly. it’s always going to shift, at the end of the day, it’s interesting. Earlier today, we had our Mattingly Research and Development call and what we’re doing, and I’m so excited about this effort. So you know how on LinkedIn or on other socials, like the dei firms or the dei leader from an internal position right, will post on every holiday, like, happy Whatever day. And it just feels like, so performative. What’s the purpose? And why do we need everyone posting about it? I just need one person to post about it, and that’s it. I just need a calendar. I don’t understand. And not only as I mentioned before, we talk about inclusion in terms of behaviors. What can we do from a micro affirmation level, like subtle things? What can we do from, an inclusive leadership level, and what can we do as allies? More like high risk, but high reward sort of things we can do. And so what we’re going to do next year on this R and D call? Earlier today, we’re finalizing the list of holidays that we are going to acknowledge or whatever next year. And it’s hard because it’s like, well, if we acknowledge this, how can we leave this out? I’m like, we have to take a stand somewhere. And the stand is, how does this holiday potentially impact how you interact with people in your workplace? And how can we support that? Because, for example, we’re like, let’s get rid of all super religious holidays. It’s okay if it’s broad, but like, Ash Wednesday, let’s get rid of that. And I was like, you know what? I don’t want to get rid of Ash Wednesday, because, I worked at a consulting firm where a lot of the people who worked there were Catholic. And on Ash Wednesday, they came into work with ashes on their forehead. And I didn’t know how to react. I knew what it was for. But there’s, like, something brave or vulnerable at coming to work with that on your forehead. You know what I mean? So I wish I had some guidelines. What could I have done?

Ben Butina, Ph.D.: we happen to live in the same area. And having the ashes on your forehead is pretty common because it’s a heavily Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox Catholic. But I’ve also noticed that, some Protestant denominations will also have Ash services. But it’s one of those things that I think is becoming broader. But I’m glad you brought it up because as soon as you said Ash Wednesday, I said, Wait a minute, can’t let go of that one. Because, that’s one of those sort of behavioral samples that you provided where, hey, there’s a visible thing that people are doing and that they’re bringing it into the workplace. And I wonder how many conversations they have about why is there Ash on your forehead?

Victoria Mattingly, Ph.D.: Yeah. Or are we supposed to have a foundations or not or whatever. So just bring it home.

Mattingly will share three inclusive behaviors on each of the holidays

Victoria Mattingly, Ph.D.: Whether it’s those demographic variables I listed earlier, or it’s the holidays that Mattingly is going to celebrate and share out. So we’re going to share on each of the holidays, we recognize three inclusive behaviors that you can do that day for those who celebrate or observe that holiday. so, like, on Ash Wednesday, what are the three things to do? Because you’re not going to be like happy Ash Wednesday. It’s a sad day, I think. I don’t think it’s, like, a good thing. I’m really excited about that, to turn something that I feel like is performative otherwise. And, we’ve gotten back and forth a lot. Like, if we should acknowledge holidays, and we haven’t acknowledged any holidays because of trying to figure out the right balance. And so my point is we are going to end up excluding someone or something. And it’s the same with these demographics. They’re always going to shift. We’re going to learn through this holiday effort this year. If it does add value, if it does, we’re not going to do it next year. But if it does add value this year, we’re going to make sure that if we get a lot of feedback that we should have had this holiday or that holiday, or we didn’t get much engagement on certain holidays, we’ll update the list. I think we just need to have my point is, we need some grace in the dei space because nothing’s perfect, nothing’s fully figured out yet, but we still need to do the best we can with what we have. And so let’s just keep going and learning and growing and refining these variables or these holidays or these whatever.

Ability Based Diversity is a new construct that focuses on ability rather than disability

Ben Butina, Ph.D.: okay, let’s jump back for a minute to ability Based Diversity, or, ability based, diversity inclusion. Is that a new construct or just a new name?

Victoria Mattingly, Ph.D.: I didn’t google it. It’s so new for me that I haven’t even Googled it.

Ben Butina, Ph.D.: Oh, I see. Yeah. It’s so new to me. But I thought you just made it up.

Victoria Mattingly, Ph.D.: I thought I did, but now I’m worried about well, I guess I just.

Ben Butina, Ph.D.: Wonder, how are you thinking differently about this as a result of that different name? Are you thinking about it differently than you think an, ordinary person might think of.

Victoria Mattingly, Ph.D.: So, you know, I think I did make it up. Ben, I’m not seeing anything on, this quick little Google search.

Ben Butina, Ph.D.: All right, well, it’s documented now, so ever need to defend that you invented this, just point people back to this episode.

Victoria Mattingly, Ph.D.: This episode. This is when it happened. Ability based inclusion. Okay? I kind of wish we had, like, video options, at least picture options for this, because I have that picture up again. And when I have, that diversity picture and it says, we all hold many identities, I go through it and I say, well, we all have an age, and we all have a sexual orientation, we all have a gender, we all have a race or ethnicity. I think the dei conversation gets lost. We’re only talking about certain groups, and of course it makes sense to center certain groups depending on the context, right? That’s a, very targeted and necessary and intentional effort, but sometimes it’s more universal, right? And when we talk about diversity and we talk about, even just dei broadly, diversity, equity, and inclusion broadly, that’s universal. That should apply to anyone and everyone. And we all as I said, we all have an age, we all have gender. And the same way, it doesn’t make sense for me to say, we all have an age, we all have a gender, and we all have a disability. I think most of us do have a disability one way or another, depending on how you define disability. You could define maybe having really bad allergies that could negatively impact your life. But would people say, I have a disability because I have bad allergies? I don’t know. Like, menopause. Menopause could be a disability. It’s during one stage of life. But I do remember when I was pregnant in grad school, and I was like, that I don’t know if you have kids, Ben. So I was in that big pregnant phase, like, that nine months. I just want to get this baby out of me. And I’m waddling around, and there’s handicapped spots that are always empty. And my gosh, I went to Colorado State, not Carnegie Mellon. That’s here in Pittsburgh. I went to Colorado State, and parking was limited, very limited. And so I was like, I went to the I think the health office. I forget which office I went to, but I was like, hey, am I eligible for a handicap pass for the next month? And they’re like, absolutely. But did I think of myself as having a disability when I was m no. And so if we talked about this less as disability and more, as ability, ability based, which could be chronic or which could be episodic, like the pregnancy example episodic. The fact I just had cancer episodic. Right. The fact that trouble with depression chronic. Right? And so there’s all these different dimensions. And if we can talk about it more in the ability based framework. Once again, we all fit into that. We all fall on some ability spectrum the same way we all have an age and we all have a gender and whatnot.

Ben Minkoff congratulates you on beating cancer

Ben Butina, Ph.D.: Yeah. I wanted to say congratulations on beating cancer. about how long ago did you get that news?

Victoria Mattingly, Ph.D.: Oh my gosh. So thank you. First off, it was such a wild ride. And honestly, it was just the end of the worst year of my life. It was just kind of like the icing on the cake because, my father passed away. and that proceeded after that, I had a mental health crisis. And then after, when I was finally starting to feel better, I got smacked with this cancer diagnosis and it really came out of nowhere. And so public service announcement, get things on your body checked out. Because I got this biopsy and it was super quick and whatever and didn’t think twice about it because people get biopsy all the time. Cancer doesn’t run on my family. I am a fair skinned redhead. I’ve, always taken care of my skin because I burn. And to get the call from my dermatologist and be like, you have stage two melanoma. It’s aggressive. You need to drop everything. Get in with this, oncologist. We need to get surgery right away. It was just like such a whirlwind. And so it was like June or July. I went from diagnosis to surgery to then news of like, they got it all out and remission essentially. And then heal. Right? Because I got the good news, which was wonderful. I didn’t have to wait. I only had to wait like a week, which is still like the longest week of my life. M, that was the worst part. I was okay throughout the whole experience until post surgery, pre results. That was really rough. And that’s when I actually reached out and made a public post. So I started off with just like, friends, facebook’s, like my friends and family. and the amount of response I got back ben was just like it was phenomenal. People not just DMing me, telling me their stories, really truly checking in, listening, responding. people were calling, texting. It was just been like this outpouring. And that’s what I needed. I’m an extrovert. That’s where I get my energy. And that’s how my soul gets lit up. By being in community with others. Even if it is like, virtually. and the sad thing is, okay, so I’m getting ahead of myself. So that was beautiful and wonderful, but it was just such a whirlwind because I still had to heal. I’d never had major surgery before. I had complications with the healing process that made it more challenging. So it was just bizarre to like, how do you celebrate something that you haven’t even quite gotten through yet? Celebrating winning the war when I still am fighting the battles. It was just really bizarre. And when I found out that I was cancer free, even though I will be in remission and I will have ongoing treatments and things, it’s not like I’m completely out of the water or anything, but I’m not actively fighting cancer right now. And I went to see my husband, and he came outside of his work, and I told him the great news, and we embraced because we went through it together. He was just like my saint throughout the whole experience. and then the first thing I said, Ben, was they literally cut this out of me. They cut the cancer out of me. Like, what amazing modern medicine age. Why can’t they cut the depression out of my brain?

The announcement of cancer gets a different response than the announcement of depression

Ben Butina, Ph.D.: Yeah, I was going to ask you about sort of the contrast between the two. One thing that stood out to me is that, somehow we’ve arrived at a place, I think, as a society, where talking about cancer is considered like, a good thing. talking about it even if you’re not directly you don’t have it or you don’t treat it. but it’s something that people talk about all the time. It’s on TV all the time. it’s pretty easy, without a whole lot of effort to think of, okay, what sort of accommodations might somebody need if they’re under treatment for cancer? but I’m guessing that, the announcement of I have cancer gets a different response than the announcement on I have depression.

Victoria Mattingly, Ph.D.: Oh, my gosh.

Ben Butina, Ph.D.: Tenfold more about that.

Victoria Mattingly, Ph.D.: Tenfold. Tenfold. And I don’t want to negate anyone who reached out to me about the cancer. As I said before, that helped me through that was the hardest part of that, was waiting for those results and having all that support that got me through. I am so grateful. and when I do talk about mental illness right. I do get support. It’s not like it’s crickets by any means. It’s just the sheer difference in number and quantity is just interesting to notice. and then what’s also interesting just to call out is even though Sire Grice, my business partner, co owner of she this whole year, because, as I said, it’s been a year from hell, the cancer was just two months. I had a whole ten months before that. That was just horrible. And if it wasn’t for her, she kept the company going. She was just amazing.

Victoria Mattingly, Ph.D.: I needed far more help from Sir Trees when I was having mental health issues than when I was having the cancer. Yes, I took days off after surgery, but I was pretty good. I was getting way more work done, before and after the surgery than I was when. I was at my lowest mental health wise. The point is, yes, you’re absolutely right. It’s so much more normalized and destigmatized and almost like hero type. Like, you beat cancer, right? Cancer survivor. People applaud that. But for me to say, I will have depression for the rest of my life and I need workplace accommodations for it, that’s not exciting.

Ben Butina, Ph.D.: It’s got a different vibe. Right.

Victoria Mattingly, Ph.D.: It’s not a hero story. It’s just like this is just something that I need to deal with from time to time. And I need a company that’s going to have systems and processes in place so when I can’t perform at my best that I’m not going to overall hurt my performance, hurt the place of hurt my team. And it’s possible because we’re doing it now at Mattingly. Other people have had crises on our team as well. And we’re always there for each other, but we’re small but mighty, so we’re able to really step in and pitch in in a way. I think larger organizations don’t have that agility that a small company has, but that’s what we’re building. That’s what we want for our clients. That’s what I want by sharing my story. so, yeah, thanks for asking about that. Thanks for sharing along and being part of that community that helped get me through, because I think people downplay the social network stuff. But I found a lot of community on these platforms.

Ben Butina, Ph.D.: Yeah, I have as well, some, platforms more than other, and boy, they do change over time.

I love talking to practitioners. What do you want researchers to know

Ben Butina, Ph.D.: I need to let you go soon, because I’ve used up probably a little more of your time than I even said that I would. But I have to ask you one more question, and that is I love talking to practitioners. First of all, that’s what I am, primarily. I do a little research, but mainly I’m a practitioner, from within the world of dei practitioner space. What do you want researchers to know? So if I’m primarily a dei researcher, or maybe I’m a graduate student, considering what kind of research I should do, what should I be looking at, what do I need to pay attention to that I’m not paying attention to right now?

Victoria Mattingly, Ph.D.: And this is specific to dei research?

Ben Butina, Ph.D.: Yeah.

I’m currently host of Psyops Conversation, a monthly podcast

Victoria Mattingly, Ph.D.: Okay. I’m going to go back to a really cool full circle moment I had, last week. so some of y’all might know I’m currently I’m host of Psyops Conversation series. We’re like a monthly podcast, live stream sort of deal. And I love it so much because I just get to interview all these really cool I have psychologists.

Ben Butina, Ph.D.: I know the feeling.

Victoria Mattingly, Ph.D.: It’s awesome. I just get to ask them a question, and they share all their brilliance, and it’s fun. I really like interviewing people. There’s shared energy, even virtually, which is like, a cool thing to do. So anyway, the very first episode so I jumped in in late 20s. We’re coming up on episode 40, I think. So I came in around the late 20s. So the person who hosted before me, Kelly Reed, who’s what she built the whole thing, which is wonderful. Can you guess who her episode one guest was?

Victoria Mattingly, Ph.D.: The most famous Ioppsychologist in our field, in your opinion?

Ben Butina, Ph.D.: Oh my gosh. In our field or outside of our who identifies iosych general? I don’t know that he identifies as an iosych, but I would say of the people with, like, a PhD in iosych or a closely related field, probably Adam Grant.

Victoria Mattingly, Ph.D.: Ding, ding, ding. Episode One ben Episode one. How cool is like, and now I host it. You know what I mean? He’s always idol to me. I even reached out to him when I got my dissertation topic because it was on Allyship. And he had just wrote the book with, Cheryl Samberg. And he’s such, like an ally know. And he responded and connected me with other people. And he’s like, I’m not the right person for this, but here’s five people that are.

Ben Butina, Ph.D.: Wow, that’s great to hear.

Victoria Mattingly, Ph.D.: Awesome. He’s awesome.

Adam Grant: Allophilia is an openness to experience. So it’s like the opposite of colorblind

Victoria Mattingly, Ph.D.: But anyway, in this episode, to answer your question, and this was, eight 2018. So what’s that five years ago? This was five years ago. And I don’t think there’s been any progress since then, which is so sad. But he got asked that same question by Kelly Reed. What a meta moment we’re in right now, by the way. But I digress. so he got asked that same question by Kelly Ree. And his response was this concept called Allophilia. Now, for the record, I detest that word. I think the word it needs rebranded so bad. So if anyone’s out there listening and has a better idea for what this word should be, please reach out to me and let me know what you think. but essentially what the word means. The construct is not just accepting diversity, not just embracing it or celebrating it, but it’s like, I’m going to actively seek it out because I know when I interact with people who are different than me, it’s going to make me a better person. I’m going to benefit from this. So I not only just accept and celebrate, but I actively seek out difference. And that’s what the word means. Like allophiliate love. of all.

Ben Butina, Ph.D.: Is it really different, though, than the openness to experience facet of the big Five personality model?

Victoria Mattingly, Ph.D.: I think it’s that I think there’s probably a very strong correlation. So you’re right. There might be some construct. What’s that called when there’s too high?

Ben Butina, Ph.D.: Like construct overlap or construct conflation?

Victoria Mattingly, Ph.D.: Conflation. There’s another word for it, like multivariate. I remember learning.

Ben Butina, Ph.D.: All right, listeners, if you know that word, tweet it at it.

Victoria Mattingly, Ph.D.: Collineation. Is it collineation.

Ben Butina, Ph.D.: Well, I mean, there would definitely be collinearity.

Victoria Mattingly, Ph.D.: Collinearity. That’s it. Thank you. but its openness to experience, applied specifically to identity. So it’s like the opposite of being colorblind. I think it’s interesting how being colorblind so, for those of you that might, not know the context, well, I don’t see race. I don’t understand why we’re having this anti racism conversation, because I don’t see race. When I see Stephanie, I see a hard working employee. I don’t see that she’s a black woman. I don’t see race. I’m, colorblind. And that used to be like, a good thing, but now what we know is that you can’t be colorblind because if you’re colorblind, then you’re putting your head under the carpet, under the rug about what the problems actually are for people from certain identity groups, right? Quick example, I just got back from the most amazing conference band I’ve ever been on. It was on a cruise. It was called I need to go.

Ben Butina, Ph.D.: To conferences that are on cruises.

Victoria Mattingly, Ph.D.: Seriously, there needs to be way more conferences on cruises. And the price was like, comparable for what a normal conference is when you count up hotel and food and all that. Anyway, so, amazing conference. But cruise aside, a big reason the conference was so amazing for me is the woman who threw it, Ashley Brundage. And, she owns her company based on her book Empowering Differences. So it was the voyage of empowerment. And Ashley is a trans woman. And, so most of the attendees, there’s maybe like, I’m going to say, 50 or 60 people in the conference altogether. Most of the attendees were in the trans community. And I’ve never been in a space like that before. And what a gift that I got to understand that’s a whole chapter in a book someday. But, my point was that’s Alophilia and I’m relishing in that. What a cool opportunity that I get to be around so many people, have a different world perspective and experience that I can just be here and just learn by being in their presence. And we’re interacting, right, and we’re understanding each other and it’s just like a really beautiful thing. So, anyway, Adam Grant said we need more researchers to stop studying unconscious bias, stop studying these minute things, and really get at how do we elevate people to go from tolerance to acceptance to celebration to allophilia that’s what we need to do. And so check out that episode. Check out episode one. I think it’s around like minute 16 or 17 or something. and do that. I want more of that because right now, M madden Lee is really focused on inclusivelytics and measurement and measurement strategy and all that great juicy IO stuff. And I think we’ll always do that. But as organizations, mature on their dei journey. Allyship is going to start coming into play really nicely. How do we start? Really engaging majority group members in a meaningful way. So allophilia is coupled with that very closely. So I want people to be researching that. Tell me what to do. How do I build more allies, build more genuine excitement to how do I just interact and engage and support and elevate those who are different than me? Because it’s going to make us all better as a result?

Ben Butina, Ph.D.: I found this conversation to be just absolutely fascinating. Victoria, I want to thank you for being here. If listeners would like to get a hold of you, find the book, find your company, where should they go?

Victoria Mattingly, Ph.D.: If you’re not going to sell me something like, I’m going to connect with you. I love growing my network on LinkedIn. I love connecting with iOS. I’m very involved in psyop. So just connect with me on LinkedIn. Say hello. Don’t just follow, like, connect. I’ll accept. And then, my company’s on there. My book’s on there. But yeah, let’s be a LinkedIn friend.